Due Tuesday, 3/20 Republic Assignment

Q1: Notice that our reading on Thrasymachus is divided into two parts. The first part is entitled – “First Statement and Criticisms”. In this first part, what are Socrates’ main argument(s) against the idea that justice is whatever the strong (i.e. the government) says it is?

A1: Socrates main points are the fact that the strong is not specific enough (who are the strong), the strong make mistakes, and that their are different governmental societies.

Q2: In the second part – “Second Statement and Final Refutation” – what are Thrasymahcus’ two main points and what are Socrates’ main points in response?

A2: I'm not that sure on what the last few pages are about. I couldn't figure out why Thrasymahcus was referring to nurses, sheep and shepherds.

Q3: In your opinion, is it ever right to harm somebody? Why or why not? What would Socrates and/or Thrasymachus say in response to your answer?

A3: I do not think it is right to harm somebody. In todays world that will never be reality, but it would be nice. I think it is not right to harm something simply because it causes complications like: "Hey, he hurt me... can I hurt him back?" I think Thrasymachus would agree with me. Socrates ooin the other hand would try to argue over the little points that are just annoying to listen to and only Socrates would care about. He would never even make up his own point, just disargee with me. (I havn't read enough of plato to really know what he would do but thats what I am assuming now.)

DUE FRI 3/16 Personal Reflection and Plato Assignment

Personal Reflection:

good friend:
A good friend is someone who you hang out with and have fun. At least that it what I think of. Some people say it is someone you can trust, others say it someone you have known for a long time. You define what a friend is and what makes them 'good'. I have a good friend and I can't trust him. Some people say that doesn't make him my friend, but I hang out with him and have a fun time so thats all that matters for me. (can any of you guess who he is?)
bad friend:
A bad friend is someone you don't have fun with because their annoying and/or a jerk. You may be able to trust them but that doesn't make them a good friend. I mean what kind of friend is hard to be around and have fun with?
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Q:
Amongst other things, Socrates strategy includes an attempt to define a friend (Section 334c-335b) and a critique of the idea that a just man can do harm (Section 335b-336a). Why did he start this line of questioning? What questions does he ask and what responses does he get that leads him to win the argument?Are his points valid and convincing?

A:
Socrates started that line of questioning so he could prove Polemarchus wrong. He asks specific questions like can you punish someone who seems bad, or only if they are bad. Polemarchus keeps agreeing with Socrates untill he gets his point. I think that Socrates points are valid except when he cherry picks around stuff just to make his point.

Q:
List 3-5 of the questions that Socrates asks that you think are the most useful in arguing against Polemarchus. Why are these questions useful for Socrates purposes?

A:
1. "But which do you reckon are a mans friends or enemies? Those he thinks good, honest men and the reverse, or those who really are even though he may not think so?"
2. "If we harm a horse do we make it better or worse?"
3. "Worse, that is, by the standard of excellence by which we judge horses, not dogs?"

Socrates gives these questions to find loopholes or week undefined points in Polemarchus's definition of justice. I think this helped Socrates change the definiton of justice a lot.

Q:
What lesson do you think Socrates/Plato is trying to prove by having Polemarchus give in to Socrates when his father (Cephalus) would not? Short answer response.

A:
I thin khe might be trying to prove that all though they are father and son that they do not agree with eachother. Im not so sure if this is right but its all I could think of.

DUE FRI, 3/16 Republic Assignment

What are Cephalus’ view of justice?
He thinks that justice is doing what is right and owning up to your debts.
What is Socrates response?
His response was that you coudn't define what was right and that if your friend lent you a gun and then he went insane and asked for it back, common sense would tell you not too but then you would breaking the laws of 'Justice'
According to Cephalus, what are the virtues of old age?
Im not sure but I think he was saying that as physical activity goes down your mental staus goes up because you have more time to sit and think.
What was Cephalus doing right before the discussion that took place?
Cephalus was sitting in an easy chair because he had just sacrificed in the courtyard.
What is the profession of Cephalus?
I guess i got this wrong because I thought that he inherited money and then invested it. (and hes father stole it, or abused it?)
Who are Cephalus and Polemarchus?
Cephalus is an old rich guy. Polemarchus... I must admit i dont know who he is (I am absalutly the worst possible person to remmeber peoples names in a story). I think these eople were talking to eaxch other most of the pelude.
Do you agree with Cephaus or with Socrates? Why? If you don't agree with either of them, write about which one you think makes the stronger arguement - even if you think it is not "right" - and why?
I am confused. Because someones reason not to accept the other persons understanding of 'justice' doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how simply saying that you wouldn't give a crazy guy his gun back is a loop whole in 'paying back your debt'. I will bring this up in class because I am having a hard time explaining this here.

Q: Compare and contrast what Socrates says in “The Simile of the Cave” with Fahrenheit 451. How are characters like Mildred similar to characters in “Simile of the Cave”?

A: Mildred, Clarisse, and Guy (the main characters of F451) are all characters in Fahrenheit 451 that are similar to characters in Simile of the cave. Mildred is Blinded from the world and the media forces to know what she thinks she knows. This is exactly how the people in the caves are like. They think they know what everything is because they only know about the shadows, they don't even accept the idea of their being anything else that easily. Clarisse is like the philosophers in the simile of the cave. Clarisse always asks 'why' and does not sit there to be told 'how'. The philosophers in the simile of the cave's whole life is based on 'why'. In Fahrenheit 451 it seems like Clarisse asks a lot of good questions and realizes things that everyone fails to recognize. Guy always thought burning book was normal and that information forced into him was just a part of his life. Once he was introduced into a new way of thinking he thought that he was previously doing everything wrong and saw how he was corrupted. The 'prisoners' in the cave are like this because they thought the shadows were normal and that they saw shadows. yet once they were free the realized from reverse engineering that they saw light and not shadows; that light casted shadows and they could see the shadows but thats not what made them.

DUE WED 3/14 - Personal Reflection (Plato)

Recall a time that you heard a statement of “fact” that was later found to be untrue. It can be from a parent, a teacher, a friend, a government official, a book, or a film. How did you find out it was untrue and how did it make you feel? Did it change your outlook on anything?

A: When I learned that the tooth fairy was not real I wasn't mad or anything. I already assumed she wasn't real because I din't think it was possible with the te fact that she was soposedly. So when I learned she wasn't real it made me think of the people of who got a lot more money then me, or who didn't get that much. I have had a more 'dramatic' experience but I have failed to thin kof one.

3/2 Personal Reflection

I know this is supposed to be about pride, but I couldn’t think of an example that fit that description. So I am going to write about the time I was having fun but I regretted having fun. I was in the hallway with my laptop with Justin and Cameron like usual. And we were going to go onto Digg, but I decided to play NFS most wanted instead because I thought that the middle school rule were you could play video games before school applied at HTH, but that wasn’t the case; obviously somebody thought it would be too good of an idea to do that. So I was having fun playing NFS and then Mr. Jana and Ben daily come around the corner. Justin, Cameron, and I look up at them and then continue playing. Then Ben daily calmly says to me as if he was simply saying hi to me: “I’m going to have to confiscate that. You can get it from Marcus at the end of the day.” So I gave it too him and Cameron and Justin started talking about why you couldn’t play video games before school if you can play cell phones, iPods, and PSP’s without someone taking it away.

3/2 Iliad Assignment

Summary:

In the beginning Patroclus drives Hector in to back all the way to troy. Then later were we pick up on line 800 a lot more stuff happens. A reference to Hubris and cosmos is made. Patroclus gets knocked of his chariot. Hector and Patroclus fight for a while and neither of them can win. Apollo rips off Achilles armor and then Hector lays the final blow to kill him.

Questions:

At the end of the book Hector tells Patroclus not to come back to the ships, I was wondering what he meant by that because Patroclus is on the verge of death.

I was also wondering if Hector took Achilles sword or something like that.

3/1 Iliad Reading

1. What does Patroclus propose to Achilles and what is Achilles’ response? Why does Achilles grant Patroclus’ request?

Patroclus proposes that he go to battle with Achilles armor on so as to trick the Trojans into thinking it’s him.

He accepts it because he thinks it will make the Trojans go away. (page 414. line 81)

2. On p. 413 line 35 (approximately), Patroclus tells Achilles that Achilles is “cursed in [his] own courage.” What does Patroclus mean by that and do you agree with him?

I think he means that Achilles impending doom is tied in with his courage to take the lead and take on several men at once.

3. Either ask questions about the text or write down vocab words from the text with definitions.

QUESTION:

How come Zeus doesn’t answer both of Achilles prayers? More importantly, does no one seriously notice Achilles walking out into battle pouring wine on the floor and going back to his ship? Wouldn’t they then realize that he is not fighting.

DUE WED 2/28 Iliad Assignment

Write a question you have about the text, either an interpretive question that you have an opinion on, or something that you don't understand. You don't need to write the answer.

I can’t understand for the life of me why Achilles won't accept the offer given by Agamemnon. It clearly says that he will not be remembered if he doesn’t accept the offer.

What was your opinion of Achilles before reading Book 9? Does it change after reading Book 9? Explain why or why not.

I thought Achilles was a loner stand alone fighter before I read book 9. My opinion did not change after reading it; he just seems more frustrated with Agamemnon afterwards.

Who is speaking?
Phoenix

What does that person say and to whom does he say it?
He says to Achilles: Why aren’t you accepting the gift and joining the battle? You should be ashamed of yourself; in fact I remember when you were just a baby, I can’t believe you turned out this way.

What persuasive strategy is it?
Emotional and Ethics

Why is it an example of that strategy?
Phoenix says that he remembers Achilles was young and how he shouldn’t be acting this way.

Who is speaking?
Achilles

What does that person say and to whom does he say it?
He says that Agamemnon still won't give him what he wants.

What persuasive strategy is it?
Reason

Why is it an example of that strategy?
He says that Agamemnon won't do the simplest thing in order for him to fight. He offers huge gifts and won't listen to what Achilles wants.

DUE TUE 2/27 – Iliad Assignment

Q:

I am confused why who a lot of the characters are. Such as Atrides, Diomedes, Orestes, Chrysothemis, Laodice, Iphianassa, Ajax, Odysseus, Heralds, Odius, and Eurybates. I also don’t know what a tripod is; I'm assuming they don’t mean the thing that holds cameras.

Opinion of Agamemnon before and after:

I thought that Agamemnon was a power hungry jerk who got what he wanted while not doing much work himself. It seemed like he gave his men (this is especially true with Achilles) just barley what they need to want to work for him. After reading the text I think the same from him, because he acts the same. He offers Achilles an immense reward to try to bring him back to fight for him. But if you think about it you realize that he is just trying to give Achilles the bare minimum that he can offer (Agamemnon has much more fortune that what he is offering) to get him to fight. Yet Achilles doesn’t accept it still and he thinks that Agamemnon is so much of a jerk that he still won’t fight for him.

Persuasive conversation notes:

Nestor, Odysseus, and Ajax try and convince Achilles that he should continue to fight for Agamemnon. The say that Agamemnon will give him a lot of riches and luxuries if he comes backs to fight. That is what Nestor, Odysseus, and Ajax use to appeal to reason. They use a really good ethics reason too. They say that Achilles should join to help save the Greeks. They try to get him to feel sorry for them because they are going to die if he won't fight. As to what they used to appeal to him emotionally I still can not figure it out after reading the text over and over again.